Matthew said...Well, I guess I'll just offer some thoughts over here instead;) The downside of this is that I seldom remember to keep checking a particular post for further response.
I feel like this topic is so huge and goes so deep that it's tough to know where to begin. But I will begin by saying that when we go deep enough beneathe the surface we are neither male nor female. To me, that needs to be the starting place.
If the essence of who we are is without gender and sex then what does it mean to live in a physical body as a man, woman, or intersexed individual?
I actually think that last part is quite important. If someone is born neither exclusively male or female, where is the room for them to find their gender model?
Yes, there are differences between men and women that result from genetic differences and cultural conditioning and I think part of the challenge is discerning how to be the fullest and most whole individual in the midst of our biological and cultural distinctions.
Rather than fighting against my 'maleness' in some spirit of anti-conformity or blindly embracing the limited social and cultural expectations of what it means to be male, it seems to me that the better approach is to work with my natural strengths, inclinations and abilities, in the pursuit of becoming a fuller expression of humanity.
The difference is that it's understanding and working with the qualities of myself, as an individual, not the qualities I 'should' have, as a male. We all carry a huge amount of personal and cultural baggage about who we 'should' be but it's only when we look honestly at who we are that we really begin to make some progress.
So in that sense, I really liked your lists and your recognition that the categories are indeed based on stereotypes.
What are some 'manly' and also 'not-so-manly' qualities you'd like to cultivate? Are there any 'manly' or 'not-so-manly' qualities you'd like to be rid of?
Thanks for listening and it's good to hear your thoughts!
Clinton said...I have a lot of thoughts on the subject, and on your comments, but as usual I find myself so short on time. A reply is brewing though.
Honestly, I like who I am, so I can't say there is something more I want to cultivate or be rid of at the moment. But that is why I am putting this out there. Maybe there is more to being a man than I am aware so I am seeking other opinions. There is wisdom in the counsel of many.
I also want to shed the baggage of "should be" and grow into the man God made me to be. For instance, growing up at home, as you probably know, hunting, rifles, and lots of deer carcasses were just a part of my household, just not a part of who I was or am. I don't hunt. I could never kill an animal and I can't cut up the meat either. That was the only thing I saw my dad doing that wasn't "work" though and so I must have put it into my -This is what a man does- category. However, growing up I realized that not all men hunt, and that it wasn't necessary to be a man or be me. So, that baggage is shed.
However, I do disagree with your claim that the essence of who we are is without gender. Although there are obvious physical differences and culturally conditioned roles, I don't believe those constitute the complete totality of man and woman. I think that all cultures recognize the intrinsic differences that are, not create artificial differences. It becomes a bit of a chicken or egg question. Which came first, the gender or the culture? Generally cultures look for roles with a path of least resistance. It is only the very controlled and artificial cultures of modern day that have tried to create a genderless society and those only last as long as there is top down control. Left to our own devices I think we find our own natural, intrinsic male or femaleness.
And I think that this ultimately is what you have encouraged me to do, although our thought process to reach the same conclusion is different. By working with my natural strengths, inclinations and abilities I will become a fuller expression of a man, a male, the person God created me to be.
Matthew said...Well, I'm glad I could help! Yes, I think we're coming at it from different places but coming to the same conclusion. It's encouraging to hear that you've put some time and effort into processing this stuff and that you like who you are, as a person. That's great:)
Our biological sex is a part of who we are, without a doubt, and our gender (the cultural models of our sex) are definitely influenced by that, too. What I meant is that our sex and gender are layers of who we are and that at a soul level we are nongendered and nonsexed. You're free to disagree, of course;)
As human beings, we cannot escape our sex and gender but those are only part of the whole and not anywhere near the deepest part. What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks for sharing!
I definitely agree that our sex and gender is not anywhere near the deepest part of who we are. And we do seem to be coming from different directions but finding ourselves at similar conclusions. All truth belongs to God.
I find myself asking God to help me be(come) the man I was created to be. I suppose I could just as easily pray to become the person I was created to be.
However, this may be where we differ, but I think even the deepest part of who we are, our spiritual, supernatural, gooey center, contains some element of the male or femaleness we're talking about. That is to say, some of the stereotypical Male or Femaleness are stereotypes for a reason. They are generally consistent within men and women and that is because of design, not biology. I can't really prove it just as it can't really be disproven either.
Any way, no matter what, there are those differences we find ourselves with in this life which I think we all want to accept and understand, or fix if we think it is broken. For a while I thought there were things that were broken in my life which I now realize were just differences that needed to be accepted. Like I said before, the manly art of hunting is not a part of who I am, and growing up I felt like I wasn't really a man because I didn't do it but every other man I knew did. I read books and thought thoughts while most of the males I knew pimped cars, hunted things, shot things, drank and chased girls. I sat there wondering why I was different. Now I accept that I just was different and that is that. It doesn't make me less of a man, just a different man. And I am also working through the idea of adulthood. I am working at putting away childish things and living a mature (developed and full) life. That is also a part of what I consider being a man (although equally a part of being a woman).
Clinton said...Thanks for putting your thoughts up here Matthew.
Actually, I've been thinking about it and I've changed my mind. I don't think the gooey center of people has male or female or female traits but supernatural traits. Our soul, or spirit, is beyond male of female.
However, there is something powerful about the differences between sexes and how they compliment each other. More than reproduction, they are two parts of a whole. And because I see them that way, I feel that there has to be differences between them that are equally special and yet different. And those differences constitute the differences between men and women, beyond the physical.
My question for you Matt is do you see men and women as the same, just contained in different "Male" and "Female" bodies? I know of some people who do and it changes the frame of reference for the conversation slightly.
matt said..."I don't think the gooey center of people has male or female or female traits but supernatural traits. Our soul, or spirit, is beyond male of female."
Right on;) Not only am I glad you recognize that but that you're so willing to adapt your conclusions. That kind of humility and willingness is something we all, including myself, need to continually cultivate.
I think men and women are different in many ways, for sure. It's more that the ways we are different often get confused and exaggerated out of proportion and less encompassing perspectives become quite limiting for both sides.
Part of the reality is that men and women tend to be culturally conditioned very differently (and there are some cultures where the females are conditioned to be the aggressive, violent ones!) and those are patterns we need to be aware of if we want to be free to be - as you've said - who we really are, allowing more and more of the deeper dimensions of who we are to rise to the surface and become embodied in our 'maleness' or 'femaleness' in the most authentic way.
Hope that makes sense:)
What do you think?
Clinton said...There definitely is an overlap of male and female. The books I was reading dealt mostly with the differences between male and female because the differences are what make us different. I know that sounds obvious but that was the point of the books, to emphasize what differentiates men from women. That's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.
I think now we're starting to talk about nature versus nurture which can go in many directions. One may say, like I think you are, that differences between men and women are cultural creations that wouldn't exist outside the artificial creation of the culture. (Or at the very least are amplified beyond what would manifest outside of these cultures.) That is the nurture point of view. I tend to fall on the nature side of view which says that although we are all culturally conditioned into roles that reflect maleness and femaleness, it is because there are natural differences between men and women which are recognized by the culture. A culture may nurture roles for the sexes, but the culture itself bases those roles on the very nature of maleness and femaleness.
I believe there is a spirit of adventure and desire to conquer things in men. I believe there is a desire to nurture and relate in women. I believe that these traits are part of the essence of men and women. That's not to say there is no overlap between the sexes, but predominantly that is how it is expressed. How that maleness and femaleness is expressed in each culture may differ, but the essence behind the differences is very real, and part of nature itself.
I think the culture of aggressive and violent females you are referring to is known as high school. Just kidding. Seriously though, the only ones I have ever heard of were fiction, not reality. I'd be interested to get more information on these seemingly sex reversed cultures.
Right now I believe that cultures are like water. They take the path of least resistance and nurturing the essence of what makes us men and women is easier than creating false roles that try to make us the same or try to make females the aggressors and men the relaters.
All that being said, if that is where I am at, that means being a man, or woman, for that matter, involves accepting the difference and using it nurturing it to its full potential.
I think now we're starting to talk about nature versus nurture which can go in many directions. One may say, like I think you are, that differences between men and women are cultural creations that wouldn't exist outside the artificial creation of the culture. (Or at the very least are amplified beyond what would manifest outside of these cultures.) That is the nurture point of view. I tend to fall on the nature side of view which says that although we are all culturally conditioned into roles that reflect maleness and femaleness, it is because there are natural differences between men and women which are recognized by the culture. A culture may nurture roles for the sexes, but the culture itself bases those roles on the very nature of maleness and femaleness.
I believe there is a spirit of adventure and desire to conquer things in men. I believe there is a desire to nurture and relate in women. I believe that these traits are part of the essence of men and women. That's not to say there is no overlap between the sexes, but predominantly that is how it is expressed. How that maleness and femaleness is expressed in each culture may differ, but the essence behind the differences is very real, and part of nature itself.
I think the culture of aggressive and violent females you are referring to is known as high school. Just kidding. Seriously though, the only ones I have ever heard of were fiction, not reality. I'd be interested to get more information on these seemingly sex reversed cultures.
Right now I believe that cultures are like water. They take the path of least resistance and nurturing the essence of what makes us men and women is easier than creating false roles that try to make us the same or try to make females the aggressors and men the relaters.
All that being said, if that is where I am at, that means being a man, or woman, for that matter, involves accepting the difference and using it nurturing it to its full potential.
Clinton said...One last quick thought. If there really is a difference between men and women, and I believe there is, nurturing only those differences does not make one a better man or woman. It would make them a stereotypical and unbalanced man or woman.
I have concluded that nurturing those gender specific traits along with all the other characteristics that men and women share, intellect, humour, artistic expression, etc..., produces the man or woman full of potential.
I believe that without God our (and my) full potential will never be reached.
